David: So what's the latest? I've kinda been out of the game for a couple weeks... I saw Greenwald on Colbert, and noticed more and more press accurately reporting about the rise of the Anonymous phenomenon... David: (I feel a bit like everything's gotten much bigger than me, and journalists like you have filled in any role I might have played back in '08...) me: well me: http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/201109/6905/Anonymous-plans-defense-for-Bradley-Manning-promises-a-media-war me: http://piratenpad.de/master David: Yeah, I saw that. I like the idea. taking on the US Gov't will be tough... for them to relent would be a tacit endorsement for their people to violate their promise of confidentiality David: I really respect Manning, consider him a hero with bigger balls than anyone I know, and it's a shame how he's being treated. Criminal, really. And winning that battle would basically win the information war. David: basically, here, we're just saying 'Anonymous is a spotlight; try to behave in a manner that doesn't draw attention. Attention is drawn to gross injustice and unwarranted self-importance.' David: which might be the simplest explanation I've ever heard for anonymous. David: how closely are you working with Greenwald on the manning thing? me: not very me: we talk a bit me: once in a while me: I feed him things David: there's a thread in SA's D&D forum about Greenwald's stuff on Manning. There's a thread at WWP about your work. I'd love to help co-ordinated action between you, greenwald, the WWP forums and the SA forums. I'm not in any official leadership position with any of 'em, but I have the ability to force issues... David: I'm just not sure exactly what action I should be taking. I'd like to talk through some ideas if you're game... David: (I can also bend gregg's ear as needed, but I don't think I hold all that much pull at present. If an idea is strong enough, though, his crew will listen) me: actually me: I would love that me: I have some SA connex me: but would like you better me: do you know Dunkman? me: he hangs on random me: friend of my gf me: saw him last night me: plus some others David: don't know 'em, but feel free to tell any of 'em to message me me: I've never really dealt with any of them before recently David: SA is basically the original source for anonymous. We used to do the ddos shit from the forums, back around '99 David: then the forums went legit David: 4chan was founded by a goon David: and the rest is history David: but, like... David: All Your Base began at SA. David: one of the very first, most successful internet memes David: and the admins decided to delete the thread and deny any involvement David: and ban people that brought it up David: so there's been this culture on SA for years that refuses to acknowledge it's 'little brother' 4 chan David: the result is a highly educated, technically sophisticated, and very large community - that is cycnial and uninvolved David: and I'm trying to break that groupthink, because I think they could serve as a sort of 'cavalry' David: and I've had quite a bit of success, using the various news stories (wikileaks, internetk ill switch, hbgary, etc) along with my understanding of and history of involvement in chanology to make the case for an overarching narrative David: a narrative of an information war that must reach a consensus or risk becoming a hot war. David: basically, as I see it, you've got the ex-cold war people and the military industrial complex up against transparency/free speech fetishists David: and newest generation - people in college today - are on the transparency side. David: the 'digital natives' David: and the war is playing out from there. David: globally. David: I see the digital divide as significant, as I expect the 'connected class' to replace the 'ruling class' within our lifetimes. But governments and corporations have to figure out how to tap into the 'cognitive surplus' for that to happen David: Anonymous is the cognitive surplus begging to be involved in policy-making. David: yeah... It's kind've a rambling, all-inclusive narrative. And yet, I can't turn on the TV or read a news article without seeing that narrative staring me in the face. David: and most people just don't see it. me: I can tell you me: that you are entirely correct me: and this will become more evident soon me: note that the process, though me: will require more along the lines of marblecake David: yeah. But we need a strategy before anything.... David: the means is proven me: well David: the end-goal (and means of adjusting it as things progress) must be defined me: it's sort of forming itself David: yeah, that's what's so amazing. me: by which I mean the cerebral cortex David: yes :) David: I've been pushing the consciousness analogy since '08. My background is philosophy of mind, psychology, and cog sci David: I have a neuroscientists and a philosopher (specializing in consciousness) that I found on SA working with me as a team David: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Internet-Prophet/104989272889993 me: you should e-mail me robinsonchicago@gmail.com me: tell him a bit about yourself me: he will send you documents me: then I'll get back to regarding the virtual republic me: and the Tunisian framework me: brb cig David: awesome. David: (coo) David: The thing people don't realize about this emerging consciousness is that it's only as smart (or moral) as the consensus position. And the consensus position is shaped by the participants. So people that leave Anonymous to the channers are sacrificing their future by refusing to get involved in shaping the outcome. David: I have worked out anthropological 'rules' of Anonymous, working with Michael Wesch. It's a complete revolution in terms of what is regarded as 'right', 'just', 'polite', and 'obscene.' These terms themselves are being changed. And that's the 'culture war' aspect of the whole event. David: (there's an 'information war' aspect, a 'culture war' aspect, and a 'class war' aspect. The solution isn't for any one side to 'win', it's for a consensus to be reached, a synthesis between thesis and antithesis) me: I do agree, to some extent me: but from where I sit me: I see the process that will be required to create the group consciousness in which all have equal capabilities within the new process, the new Anon me: we have intel me: as such me: we have secrets me: as such me: we have people with more "power" than others me: this is a dangerous phase me: and it must be finished with quickly me: the solution, I think me: or at least a partial remedy me: will be software network akin to others me: such as Project PM is creating me: even then me: there will still be centers of "power," I think me: This is something that's very difficult me: that we have to solve soon me: we've just been busy me: and ironically me: it will have to be solved by the elite me: luckily, our elite is trustworthy me: it's a technocratic, ethical elite David: I agree with that David: how much background do you have in cog sci/consciousness studies/philosophy of mind? me: I have no formal educational background after high school me: I am mostly self-taught me: still David: cool me: I have managed to absorb some of it me: through some good books David: I respect self-taught. I'm askin' for a self-evaluation, not credentials me: and good contacts me: well me: thing is David: which books, which contacts? me: well me: I read the Seven Mysteries of Life me: a long time ago me: a lot of books on the mind me: I have several dealing with the nature of consciousness that I have meant to read David: Pinker? Dennett? me: basically me: don't remember David: okay me: I believe I have a deficit in consciousness theory me: I am more like McCluhan David: (this is my area of expertise... largely self-taught myself, only have a BA) me: I am more focused on the nature of media, information, heuristics me: black swan, etc me: that's why I'm so happy to destroy our institutions David: information is absolutely key to the whole thing. That's what most philosophers of consciousness fail to see. me: because they will destroy us David: gives you a leg up on many. me: I will admit to having a leg up on many, yes me: but me: note that I know no physics me: or math me: I do understand some math theory me: like me: well David: I don't suppose you ever travel anywhere near chicago, do you? me: I shouldn't go that far me: I will be living in New York again soon me: and Clark Robinson, my second-in-command me: is in Chicago me: the one you should e-mail for the docs me: he's a retired lawyer David: awesome. I'm halfway through composing my e-mail to clark. me: very ethical David: awesome me: good David: (I took the lsat once... scored 167... I can relate to lawyers) me: I don't know how long I'll be a "free man," though me: but if things work out, I will have lots of money soon David: you think they're gunna come for you? me: and will be happy to visit me: during warm seasons, of course me: well me: we hear thing David: I'd love to meet up sometime, I think I have information that could prove useful. me: we have channels David: if they bust you, what do you imagine they'd get you on? me: you have to understand me: that beyond Anon me: and Project PM me: I have an informal nameless network me: any number of things me: I was a common criminal me: still have warrants David: which is to say, you're from the oppressed class me: they probably don't know I used to sell weed me: but I hope they do me: because I want them to getme on that David: it's funny, I see the weed legalization issue as tying into this narrative in a very key way David: most people still think that's distinct. me: I also have things on this laptp me: it;'s not me: it's central David: agreed. me: it's a perfect symptom,even affliction, of the system David: if I ever get busted, it's gunna be for possession. I don't sell though. me: that cannot be corrected through "reform" David: yeah me: or otherwise through the system itself me: as I said the other day me: Anonymous is a process at war with a system. me: Even more so me: the system arose in a different environment me: it is not fit me: in the evolutionary sense me: and we are seeing that now me: you and I and increasingly others me: and good me: because unless this system is destroyed me: humanity could end David: are you familiar with the thesis-antithesis-synthesis model? me: it could end anyway me: I am familiar with the concept in metaphysics and thus its expressions in theology and other manifestations of human nice-tries me: but not really me: not in the context you mean me: or maybe I am me: some things I know without knowing the terms for them David: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis David: think of thesis-antithesis pairs right now David: collectivism and individualism David: anonymous is the synthesis David: america-is-awesome vs. america-is-the-great-satan David: anonymous is the synthesis David: transparency vs. privacy rights me: hmmm David: anonymous is the synthesis me: you're right me: anarcho-technocracy me: could be the same me: a more nuanced, evolved version of Anon David: libertarianism vs. socialism - anon is the synthesis David: yes me: yes me: I am supposed to talk to Radon soon me: he's been in Dubai me: I have recruited Barry Eisler for the project me: and offered a role to Bruce Sterling me: I had to get off opiates for past ten days me: but can now move on this me: expect more info on this within next few days David: cool. David: I just sent you a pic of me 'n my family over christmas break that I thought you'd find hilarious. me: lol me: just like the Masons David: anyhow, I'm not a media guy, and I'm not technically sophisticated, and I don't have a blog. But I think you can see I have some skills, talents and knowledge that should be useful. I'm trying to find a way to make myself valuable... and if you can think of anything I'd be useful for, let me know. me: I need you me: for certain things me: I need someone to work with me on a lot of these things me: and to prepare to take some over in case I am incarcerated me: and it has to be an Anon me: and so you're perfect David: good. Also, one warning (which shouldn't surprise you, coming from anon) - I will play devil's advocate. I will disagree and make as strong an argument against you as possible. I do so not to push my own agenda, but to make sure the consensus we reach is strong enough to survive and win. me: absolutely me: that's what I want me: I have no yes-men David: good. Me too. David: yeah, marblecake's irc channel is a bit groupthinky for me. David: rof, in particular, seems to be all about the class war. me: I've never been there me: are they the anti-Housh crew? David: personally, I see the class war forming - and I'm totally on the side of the underclass - but I see the 'good' that Anon can accomplish is to prevent the class war. me: yes David: no, Housh is there. me: the class war must be between the technocrats and those who are above us me: it must not be poor versus rich me: it must be erudite versus the mediocre powerful me: that's my current take, anyway me: remember that I do not have plans me: but contingencies me: based on events me: I aim to be a process rather than an institution me: just like Anon David: I agree completely. David: like I said... there's the ruling class and the underclass... David: always has been, always will be David: but the ruling class has gone through a series of expansions me: you mean the creative class? me: joining them? me: and gaining soft power? me: or something else? David: from creating a parliament (undermining the monarch) me: oic David: to creating a 'middle class' (wealthy business class with influence) David: it goes through expansions. David: right now, the ruling class is not a cabal, it's not a massive conspiracy... David: but it's still a small, insular group David: and the task of ruling is too great for them me: yes David: there's in-fighting, and there's price fixing. there's competition, and there's cooperation (both overt and covert) David: but they are ignoring the will of the people me: they do not properly promote talent David: and the two political parties have subverted things David: (dem vs. rep - anon is the synthesis) David: yes. It's not a meritocracy. me: if the interior folks were of higher caliber me: I would support them David: meritocracy really only happens when building out of major depressions, I think me: perhaps me: hmm David: we need a meritocracy, at least for a decade, to dig out of the mess that's been made me: interesting hypothesiss me: yes David: and what this all boils down to David: is tapping into the cognitive surplus me: anarcho-meritocracy David: (as described by Clay Shirky) me: Anon has show it to work David: right. me: and we did so slapdash me: imagine another Anon David: but how, exactly, do corporations and governments tap into that massive pool of talent? me: they don't do it with efficiency David: trust is currency. David: that's the key to the solution. David: skepticism fits in here me: yes me: exactly David: as skeptics are significantly more trustworthy. me: ebb and flow of relationships me: as well me: that is what it is, Anon me: trust, respect David: and the internet gives us so much information, skepticism is the only meaningful, useful means of using such a wealth of conflicting data. David: yes. Criticizing and arguing with a person is a show of respect. David: which is a value that runs directly contrary to the status quo David: that's one more revolution me: yes me: I was telling NBC me: Isikoff me: same thing me: when they came last week David: awesome :) David: I have read some of your stuff, I really dig it. Of all the writers I've read, I think you're the closest to seeing things as I do me: "In Anonymous, we can go up to the people who run shit and tell them off" me: "Can you do that at NBC, sweethearts?" David: speaking truth to power :) me: they dug it me: they love us David: yeah me: just like the poster we did David: which poster is that? me: http://i.imgur.com/n0JSY.jpg David: that is fantastic. me: a certain sort of person me: comes to us me: another sort supports us me: another sort is our enem me: many are not smart enough to fear us, of course David: are you familiar with the california f-scale (a personality psychology test)? me: one only fears their superiors if they are wise enough to do so me: nope David: http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/California_F_Scale David: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control locus of control is significant here too. me: well, I'm certainly familiar with the sort David: we can actually evaluate the sorts of people that fit each of those categories you've described. THAT'S 'self-awareness' me: yes me: we now can especially me: although we can also do so merely by observing David: yeah. me: it is easy to figure out who needs to be stripped of power and who must be elevated me: if one is of the other type David: I will say... I'm from a libertarian background, and still consider myself a libertarian (though I recognize my writing resembles marx more than rand)... me: I'm from same me: now anarchist David: I'm not comfortable with the FCC 'solving' the net neutrality issue. David: though I know it needs to be resolved. me: neither am I David: I'm an anarchist too... but I don't think people understand what I mean by it David: it's not that I want there to be no government me: I am only comfortable with pressure applied by a technocratic voluntary brigade David: it's that the very concept of Legitimate Authority - that which you are morally obligated to obey - is bunk David: no such thing exists me: intended to prevent any initiation of force David: so any government that claims Legitimate Authority is full of shit me: of course David: I'm an anarchist insofar as I reject LA me: from where would such authority derive? me: right David: but I believe there can be legitimate (lower-case 'l') government (lower-case 'g'). me: sure me: I don't mind a little government me: or a little smack for that matter David: basically... any sustainable organization of people that serve the needs of the people. me: it's just hard to keep the habit down David: yeah me: and society has addictive genes David: yeah David: what would really win the war for us David: would be comcast and at&t siding with anonymous, telling the MPAA and RIAA to fuck off, doing nothing to filter, block, monitor or throttle traffic David: and if they want to charge varying tiers of service in terms of download speeds, more power to 'em (so far as I'm concerned) me: well me: we may have some aces David: and if they explicitly state that they will not comply with any government requests to filter, block, monitor or throttle traffic, all teh better me: think about how nice it would be for, say, Tunisia, to cooperate David: (child porn being an issue to dealt with, which gets into another fundamental issue in society - our prudish refusal to acknowledge our own sexual nature, producing a lot of fucked up fetishes, some of which harm people) me: yeah, child porn is the thin wedge David: 'think of the children' killed socrates. me: that will be used to censor internet further me: of course David: (the actual charge was 'corrupting the youth.' The current revolution is socrates' revenge.) me: at this point me: I feel sorry for the fucking politician who proposes any internet clampdown, however it's phrased David: definitely. David: Egypt did us a HUGE favor. me: absolutely me: read my last couple Skeptical Inquirer columns me: it did me a pretty good favor too me: oops, about to change locations me: talk later David: by pulling the plug on the 'net, then (the gov't) losing spectacularly (and, to a large extent, to peaceful protests), they killed the 'internet kill switch' effort David: cool,. Look forward to talking more.