Kermelos: hi barrett Kermelos: quick question: anonymous does not function as a centralized, top down org but rather as individuals across the globe who utilize the group for strategic assistance to fulfill their own agendas....? me: sort of me: there's an ebb and flow me: basically, there are people who, by virtue of their activeness or their reputation, are more influential than others me: but there are no titles, no roles, no leadership other than that which comes about naturally me: basically, Anon is also at a point of transition me: lot of debates as to direction, etc me: especially since we haven't had time to process the events of last month Kermelos: just read about the ultimatum to westboro church me: meh me: I'm fighting that me: one of those things that shouldn't be done Kermelos: why? me: not a good use of our time Kermelos: what would constitute and good use of Anon's time? me: we need to be giving attention to the revolutions, not WBC Kermelos: *a good me: and pursuing the leads on HBGaary me: ensuring that all involved are exposed me: some of us are working on that now me: http://www.typewith.me/50Ox99ktN6 Kermelos: in your opinion- is there a difference between what Anon is doing and plain ol' picketing, boycotting, media campaign etc or is there none at all? Kermelos: because legally, Anon is illegal. me: everything is different from everything me: and Anon participants certainly do illegal things sometimes me: as do everyone else me: our crimes are ethical me: to the extent that anyone's actions can be ethical while also effective me: look at HBGary, for instance me: they started it, and then lied to us, and to the press, etc me: planned what amounted to crimes me: and worked with Feds me: rule of law is dead in U.S. me: and never existed in most places, really me: of course, there does exist law me: and oftentimes it is enforced me: but there comes a point at which you can still have these institutions but the Constitution is ignored me: and then we just have institutions, committing crimes to a degree that it becomes unwise for the innocent to continue applying band-aids me: especially since I haven't seen any band-aids being applied in this country lately me: In conclusion, yes, we break the law me: but me: Campbell's Project PM team doesn't me: and frankly, neither does mine me: none of us do DDOS attacks Kermelos: i see me: basically, Campbell and a few others don't want to work too closely with Anon me: and my faction is filled with them me: but also with people like Mano Singham me: who now see Anon as part of the solution and ethical relative to its enemies Kermelos: 'preciate the answers me: happy to give them Kermelos: do u know about the attack on Gawker? Kermelos: what was the reason for that? me: I've heard of it but don't know anything about it. They don't seem to mind as they come into Anon's IRC channels for interviews and I spoke to two of their editors the other day me: we give them scoops and whatnot me: I think Gawker did something stupid so a couple of Anons caused them some trouble but of course Anon doesn't act against speech me: except for gov't media Kermelos: do you guys know of the protests going on in Djibouti? me: of course me: see my last skeptical inquirer column me: came out a few days ago, written two weeks back me: of course me: that was all them Kermelos: can u gimme the link? me: if there were any direct efforts by Anon I've not heard of them Kermelos: there are no Anon efforts me: we're doing Eritrea, as I may have told you Kermelos: it'd be pointless me: pointless where? me: in Djibouti? me: to some extent me: but Kermelos: yes and many other parts of so called 3rd world me: well, of course we're best able to operate where internet is part of the culture me: but that will change sooon me: to some extent, at least Kermelos: how so? me: well, building inroads such that our sphere of action is more on-the-ground me: for instance me: PM's Africa development project and First Praxis me: plus bikes for the world me: soon enough, I'll be able to distribute pamphlets, etc Kermelos: wth is bikes for the world? me: most of these will be technical on basic engineering and health, though me: it's a charity that takes unused bikes to Africa Kermelos: oh. me: and related things me: basically anything having to do with improving access to bicycle transportation me: and other orgs me: so, to the extent that we have information "supply lines," at the very least we can impact health and development me: in an efficient way that takes full advantage of what were learning about communication Kermelos: to be honest i don't see the difference Anon would make in Eritrea also me: I know Kermelos: u agree or u know? me: I know that you don't see. I haven't told you the plan yet and these sorts of things are unprecedented so there's no reason for you to expect anything from us me: but I think if you'd seen what happened with North Africa me: and one thing is me: I know how it looks Kermelos: i followed the north africa situation very closly me: It seems ludicrous that Anon might have had a strong hand in that me: it sounds like a bunch of westerners being self-indulgent and taking credit for things me: I'd look into my Daily Kos diaries from around then me: and compare them to coverage and action elsewhere on the respective dates Kermelos: this is partly the reason for my doubt- "it sounds like a bunch of westerners being self-indulgent and taking credit for things" me: I know me: look at the wikipedia entry for Anonymous and see the links regarding OpTunisia me: and see my Daily Kos diaries me: you'll get a better picture Kermelos: over the years i have tired to become a part of some american groups who try to further "democracy" and so forth in Africa and almost always they have a severe misunderstanding of african politics me: I can imagine me: but these people Kermelos: Sudan is a major case and point me: are not your traditional activists me: they are not in it for the ritual me: of "helping" me: they're addicted to success me: totally different sort of people from the kind one runs across in U.S. activist community Kermelos: they are addicted to the attention me: you know that? me: you realize that some of our people turn down interviews with CNN? Kermelos: i was referring to what you call "traditional activists" me: and that they debate this same issue and try to contend with it? me: oh me: sorry me: yes, many of them me: not all, of course me: but either way, their work is ineffective me: they're not adapting to the environment Kermelos: exactly. there is not much glory in being involved in Africa....news outlets dont give a dick Kermelos: the only time you see news blurps is when there is some sort of bob geldoff-esque savior involved me: Kermelos, it's now my view that we're reaching a critical mass in terms of consciousness of the interconnected flaws of media and government me: and that these revolutions will be accompanied by significant movements in the U.S. me: not traditional movements Kermelos: i am starting to believe so also me: but something akin to the change of consciousness in the '60s me: some of the business reporters me: They love us me: like, people from Bloomberg me: because me: we don't lie to them me: and they see that our concerns are theirs me: anyone who pays attention knows these things me: the trick is to get them to realize that now things are easier to change if only clever and ethical people will stop and think about how we can now organize and implement me: Anonymous just happens to have gotten caught up in that realization in terms of its working culture/shared attention me: that realization is what powers the whole movement me: Anonymous could fall by the wayside in a yeart me: wouldn't be shocking me: could be surpassed by better forms me: likely comprised in part of Anon vets me: or maybe not me: at any rate, a lot of things are going to start happening very quickly now Kermelos: its exciting to witness for sure me: did you read my al-jazeera op-ed? me: signed Anonymous? me: Anonymous and the global correction me: that might put it for you a bit more solidly Kermelos: im just jaded and bitter about western activists but ill try not to let that overshadow my perception of this information revolution me: good, as we are quite unlike them even though a few of them have found a home with thus, but these tend to be people with skills and work ethic me: adaptable people Kermelos: time will tell. Kermelos: as a refugee, i have that desire to utilize the luxuries i have- i.e technology, knowledge etc me: we tend to prefer to work without any resources other than those me: for various reasons me: for instance, we haven't raised any money though wwe could have quite easily me: partly because it's best not to be dependent on it in an age at which information can be placed anywhere on the globe from anywhere else and in which one may influence anyone just as he does his neighbors me: there's too much area of potential for us to attach ourselves to orthodox methods of raising and spending large amounts of money Kermelos: exactly. therein the beauty of it all me: yep me: it really is a wondrous age and we're lucky to see it Kermelos: i was saying the same exact thing the other day me: okay, got morning meeting, adios Kermelos: bye