(7:39:44 PM) comstockfilms [~chatzilla@ool-182e3478.dyn.optonline.net] entered the room.
(7:40:30 PM) ***comstockfilms can't believe I still remember IRC commands.
(7:40:36 PM) DynamicUno: lol
(7:40:38 PM) DynamicUno: Who is Comstock?
(7:40:57 PM) comstockfilms: My slash name command isn't working
(7:41:14 PM) comstockfilms: This is Tony Costock, invited here by Barrett Brown
(7:41:23 PM) DynamicUno: Ah, I see. Welcome!
(7:41:28 PM) scottNY: hmmm
(7:41:30 PM) comstockfilms is now known as TonyComstock
(7:41:35 PM) DynamicUno: Barrett has just recently departed to work on a column
(7:42:16 PM) robinsonchicago: Hi, Tony, I think I shared some docs with you, or was intending to and failed to do so
(7:42:17 PM) scottNY: tim, i'm not a big budget guy, i do it in my head despite the encouragement of friends to use quicken or some other program
(7:42:38 PM) TonyComstock: Hmmm. Shared docs? Via e-mail?
(7:43:26 PM) TonyComstock: So my impression from Barrett is that you all still believe in the power of the internet to even the odds between the strong and the weak.
(7:43:27 PM) DynamicUno: Scott - a simply excel spreadsheet should function for us at this time, are you familiar with its use?
(7:43:43 PM) robinsonchicago: OK, I see that Barrett asked me to but I did not, I will do so soon
(7:44:04 PM) DynamicUno: Tony - perhaps it is more accurate to say that we believe that the internet is one tool that the weak can use to become unified, which is itself strength
(7:44:45 PM) DynamicUno: But essentially, yes
(7:44:49 PM) DynamicUno: the internet helps level the playing field
(7:44:53 PM) scottNY: yes, familiar with excel
(7:45:06 PM) scottNY: cant do vlooups but can pretty much fiure anything out
(7:45:16 PM) DynamicUno: Ok Scott - it doesn't have to be anything incredible, I sometimes do my budgeting in wordpad for a party, but it's essential to have the records
(7:45:18 PM) TonyComstock: I have come to believe the that digital technology is an ampllfier and accelorater
(7:45:41 PM) scottNY: Tim, I'm sure together we'll have no problems
(7:45:43 PM) DynamicUno: Tony, I think that is accurate
(7:45:47 PM) DynamicUno: Scott, I think that is also accurate
(7:45:55 PM) scottNY: no only if i can figure out if it's appropriate to ask a girl for her friend's number
(7:46:08 PM) scottNY: since i stupidly took down the wrong #
(7:46:44 PM) DynamicUno: Scott, did the original girl give you the number?
(7:46:57 PM) DynamicUno: If so, asking for it again to correct an honest mistake is fair play
(7:46:58 PM) TonyComstock: But I'm not as optimistic about the arc of history as I used to be
(7:47:15 PM) DynamicUno: Tony, I hear that. But pessimism is no excuse for inactivity
(7:47:52 PM) DynamicUno: We all do our best
(7:48:09 PM) TonyComstock: For example, I have begun to wonder if wealth distribution isn't reverating to historic norms and DT is accelating/ampllfying the trned
(7:48:31 PM) scottNY: DT?
(7:48:36 PM) DynamicUno: Digital tech
(7:48:50 PM) scottNY: we talking about kingdoms and serfs
(7:48:55 PM) TonyComstock: But told Barrett I'd be happy to have my optimism renued
(7:49:05 PM) DynamicUno: I don't think you can accurately apply the term "historic norms" to wealth distribution in this context. We're so far beyond any previous level of wealth as to be comparing apples to squid
(7:49:08 PM) scottNY: it's clearly especially int he US that the gap between the wealthy and everyone else is widening
(7:49:29 PM) DynamicUno: This means the spread is greater than anything ever imagined
(7:49:34 PM) scottNY: yes
(7:49:38 PM) DynamicUno: but also means that the aggregate is higher than anything ever dreamed
(7:49:41 PM) scottNY: but I believe the spread is also greater on a relative bsais
(7:49:48 PM) TonyComstock: look at the spread in weapons tech
(7:50:02 PM) TonyComstock: the best armed are way way way more heavily armed than the average.
(7:50:09 PM) scottNY: granted if you believe as many that the US dollar is inflated and well eventually collapse I guess that would partly even the score ;)
(7:52:44 PM) DynamicUno: Weapons tech that is automated worries me
(7:52:52 PM) DynamicUno: because it becomes all too easy to just leave laying around
(7:53:21 PM) DynamicUno: There are a lot of things that could go wrong
(7:53:54 PM) DynamicUno: However, note Afghanistan
(7:54:09 PM) DynamicUno: the contrast is striking, and yet the US is by any realistic assessment losing the war
(7:54:09 PM) TonyComstock: I've also been experimenting with the idea of information as a fluid vis a vis free surface effects
(7:54:18 PM) DynamicUno: Oh?
(7:54:22 PM) DynamicUno: Can you elaborate on that a bit?
(7:54:33 PM) DynamicUno: In terms of equations governing distribution and interaction?
(7:55:17 PM) TonyComstock: think of the phrases "flow of information" and "rush to judgement"
(7:55:53 PM) TonyComstock: and then think about the effect of fluid in a ship's hull or an airplane's fuel tank.
(7:56:34 PM) TonyComstock: Did you see Talebe at teh WIF talking about robust vs. fragile systems?
(7:59:25 PM) DynamicUno: Afraid not
(7:59:32 PM) DynamicUno: I'm not actually familiar with WIF, actually
(7:59:44 PM) DynamicUno: I'm apparently too familiar with the word "actually," however
(8:00:24 PM) TonyComstock: The Atlantic's Washington Ideas Forum earlier this Fall.
(8:01:35 PM) scottNY left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]).
(8:02:05 PM) DynamicUno: Ah I see.
(8:02:10 PM) DynamicUno: Worth investigating then?
(8:02:43 PM) robinsonchicago: Tony, Barrett did not give me an address for you, I can send you some links to Barrett's writings on information dynamics and other topics if you send an address to me at robinsonchicago@gmail.com
(8:02:47 PM) TonyComstock: I first got hip to Talebe when "fooled by randomness" came out. I find his views on risk are consenentwith my own
(8:04:21 PM) TonyComstock: mail sent!
(8:05:39 PM) DynamicUno: Oh Talebe is the guy who came up with the term "Black Swan"
(8:05:41 PM) DynamicUno: I see
(8:06:08 PM) DynamicUno: I read a fantastic article - which I believe, looking back, Barrett sent to me - about Black Swan thinking
(8:07:34 PM) TonyComstock: So I put Talebe together with flash crashes together with flow of information plus how governments have to react to the possiblity of Stuxnet viruses and end up thinking the future of the first amendement is best guessed at by looking at the history of teh second ammendment.
(8:09:52 PM) robinsonchicago: if you cant access the docs, let me know and I'll paste them
(8:10:35 PM) TonyComstock: says I don't have permision
(8:10:51 PM) robinsonchicago: hang on, I will try again
(8:11:35 PM) TonyComstock: My google address is tony@comstockfilms.com
(8:12:00 PM) TonyComstock: or loggin
(8:12:02 PM) TonyComstock: or whatever
(8:13:16 PM) DynamicUno: Weapons are more portable and cheaper as well however
(8:14:06 PM) TonyComstock: Weapons are more portable and cheaper? I think you have to be very rich to think an A10 Warthog is cheap
(8:14:25 PM) DynamicUno: An A10 is certainly not cheap - but an SA-7 is
(8:16:12 PM) DynamicUno: And when drones are fighting our battles through information networks, then weapons will be very cheap to gain control of indeed
(8:17:44 PM) TonyComstock: If I'm up against an industrial power that is responding to what it percieves as an existencial threat, I'd want something more than a shoulder fired missle.
(8:19:14 PM) TonyComstock: And I don't yet see any reasons that simarly disparites between personal and state power aren't going to be (aren't already for that matter) similarliy disparate where DT is concerned.
(8:20:10 PM) DynamicUno: Yes, but if you are up against an industrial power and it perceives you as an existential threat, you must have something to make it see you that way
(8:20:22 PM) TonyComstock: but like I said, I'm disillusioned, which is almost as bad as being an ex smoker
(8:22:55 PM) DynamicUno: Heh, fair enough
(8:23:15 PM) DynamicUno: I think it's much more likely for people like you and I to see industrial powers as existential threats than for them to repay the favour
(8:23:52 PM) TonyComstock: exactly
(8:24:30 PM) TonyComstock: A state isn't a state unless it's an existential threat to its citizens
(8:24:46 PM) TonyComstock: It won't work any other way
(8:24:58 PM) robinsonchicago: Barrett Brown describes himself as a techno ararchist, and I don't pretend to know what he means by that, but I think he is hopeful that DT will have potential to restrain excesses of states
(8:25:58 PM) TonyComstock: I am not a digital exceptionalist
(8:26:30 PM) TonyComstock: I don't (so far) see any reason that DT will interact with society any differently than any other technoligy
(8:27:02 PM) DynamicUno: I don't see states as being permanent entities
(8:27:13 PM) DynamicUno: Governing structures are fluid
(8:27:18 PM) DynamicUno: the state is one such solution
(8:27:19 PM) DynamicUno: but there are others
(8:27:34 PM) DynamicUno: I think Barrett sees DT as something with the power to supplant the state
(8:28:02 PM) DynamicUno: I agree that DT will interact like other technologies - but other technologies similarly altered the means by which humanity organized itself
(8:28:09 PM) TonyComstock: Has any other technology ever done that?
(8:28:12 PM) DynamicUno: Absolutely
(8:28:14 PM) DynamicUno: farming
(8:28:16 PM) DynamicUno: fire
(8:28:18 PM) DynamicUno: the automobile
(8:28:25 PM) DynamicUno: these engendered dramatically different social structures
(8:28:34 PM) TonyComstock: farming contributed to the rise of states
(8:28:56 PM) DynamicUno: Yes - at the time a radical departure
(8:29:09 PM) TonyComstock: what technology has undermined state power?
(8:29:21 PM) DynamicUno: The printing press
(8:29:37 PM) TonyComstock: States are less powerful now than in the feudal age?
(8:29:50 PM) DynamicUno: States are more accountable to their own people now than in the feudal age
(8:29:57 PM) DynamicUno: that is a direct result of information dissemination
(8:30:15 PM) DynamicUno: The US views Wikileaks as a powerful opponent worthy of great effort to destroy
(8:30:16 PM) DynamicUno: Why?
(8:30:28 PM) TonyComstock: that's not a great effort
(8:30:34 PM) TonyComstock: WWII is a great effort
(8:30:47 PM) DynamicUno: And WWII took years to ramp up to, and the US almost didn't join
(8:30:51 PM) TonyComstock: Wikileaks is a gnat that bit uncle sam in an embarrsing location
(8:30:52 PM) DynamicUno: because of popular pressure against it
(8:31:19 PM) DynamicUno: Does the state need to be destroyed, or merely tamed?
(8:31:32 PM) DynamicUno: And would you not say the state is more tame today than it has been in the past?
(8:31:34 PM) DynamicUno: Even the recent past?
(8:32:04 PM) TonyComstock: I would say that living outside of state control is more difficult now than it has ever been in human history.
(8:33:01 PM) DynamicUno: And living inside of state control, and influencing the direction of that state, is easier now than it has ever been in human history
(8:34:03 PM) robinsonchicago: the body of information in the possession of wikileaks has been so widely replicated that it is said by some to be immune from state destruction, and as
(8:34:54 PM) TonyComstock: So it would be easier to have the American Revolution now (or effect the same degree of change) than it was 225 years ago?
(8:35:25 PM) robinsonchicago: information coupled with programming is increasingly self-perpetuating it takes on some of the characteristics of artificial intelligences that have gotten loose
(8:35:59 PM) TonyComstock: is that a bug or a feature?
(8:36:18 PM) DynamicUno: It is more difficult now to have an American revolution - and less necessary.
(8:37:48 PM) robinsonchicago: as i have described it, seems like a bug
(8:37:58 PM) TonyComstock: Do you think we have more or less 2nd Ammendment freedom now vs. 200 years in the past?
(8:38:14 PM) DynamicUno: We have less firepower relative to the state, no doubt about it
(8:38:22 PM) DynamicUno: But "the state" is also a lot less monolithic than it used to be
(8:38:42 PM) DynamicUno: Where did wikileaks get it's information? From an agent of the state
(8:39:08 PM) TonyComstock: Can you imagine a time when having lots of information freedom is percieved as being as unnneccasray as having lots of 2nd ammendment freedom is percieved now?
(8:40:05 PM) DynamicUno: The debate is not over having "lots" of second (or first) amendment freedoms, it is over having sufficient freedoms of any sort
(8:40:15 PM) TonyComstock: A time when people who want really smart smart phones are ridiculed the same way that people who want assault weapons
(8:40:18 PM) DynamicUno: Government in America would grind to a halt without the consent of the governed
(8:40:36 PM) DynamicUno: And yet people still have assault weapons
(8:41:03 PM) TonyComstock: And yet their assault weapons are pop guns compared to teh power of the state.
(8:41:45 PM) TonyComstock: And as far as teh consent of the governed goes, most people are just fine with TSA pat downs and back scatter machines
(8:42:28 PM) TonyComstock: so I don't put a lot of faith in the consent of the governed.
(8:42:44 PM) robinsonchicago: so much that supports government is dependent on nearly universal voluntary compliance, like income tax
(8:42:55 PM) DynamicUno: Hey - I have to reboot my router
(8:42:59 PM) DynamicUno: I'll return, this is good times hehe
(8:44:58 PM) DynamicUno_ [~chatzilla@74-46-239-56.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] entered the room.
(8:45:34 PM) TonyComstock: Most people don't pay income tax volutaritiy
(8:45:43 PM) DynamicUno_: Nonsense
(8:45:48 PM) DynamicUno_: I like paying taxes
(8:45:50 PM) DynamicUno_: I pay extra
(8:45:55 PM) DynamicUno_: Taxes are the price you pay for civilization
(8:46:00 PM) TonyComstock: It's paid (withheld) by employers under threat of severe penalty
(8:47:00 PM) DynamicUno_: Yeah, but I'd pay it anyway
(8:47:07 PM) TonyComstock: Bullshit
(8:47:19 PM) DynamicUno_: I chip in a few thousand dollars a year and in exchange I get the most advanced nation in the world to live in
(8:47:21 PM) DynamicUno_: fair trade
(8:47:23 PM) DynamicUno left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
(8:47:25 PM) DynamicUno_ is now known as DynamicUno
(8:47:36 PM) DynamicUno: Roads, hospitals, police, fire, and now health care
(8:47:41 PM) TonyComstock: Let's talk again when you running your own business and actually are paying your own tax and you're asking me for tips on how to pay less.
(8:47:51 PM) DynamicUno: lol
(8:48:14 PM) DynamicUno: I"ve been head of my own business for six years and I pay extra every April
(8:48:23 PM) DynamicUno: On purpose
(8:48:40 PM) DynamicUno: This knee-jerk anti-tax rhetoric is silly
(8:48:44 PM) TonyComstock: paying extra is anti social behaivor
(8:48:49 PM) DynamicUno: Taxes aren't just disappeared funds
(8:48:51 PM) DynamicUno: they go to pay for things
(8:49:08 PM) DynamicUno: I benefited from a fantastic public education - thanks taxes
(8:49:34 PM) DynamicUno: If I lost my job and all my savings and all my investments I'd have a fallback option to get back on my feet thanks to taxes
(8:50:13 PM) DynamicUno: These are not bad things
(8:50:53 PM) TonyComstock: Of course they're not. But paying more than you are legally required to pay is anti social
(8:50:59 PM) DynamicUno: I'm interested in your reasoning
(8:52:05 PM) TonyComstock: It's like driving too slow
(8:53:48 PM) DynamicUno: How so?
(8:54:13 PM) DynamicUno: I might add that driving at all is anti-social behaviour, at this stage of the game.
(8:54:59 PM) TonyComstock: It's time for me to put my kids to bed
(8:55:06 PM) TonyComstock: I will read the materials provided
(8:55:12 PM) TonyComstock: Sorry to be such a crank
(8:55:31 PM) TonyComstock: Thanks for the invite!
(8:57:18 PM) DynamicUno: lol no worries
(8:57:20 PM) DynamicUno: cheers, nice meeting you
(8:57:37 PM) TonyComstock left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(9:02:04 PM) robinsonchicago: i need to get going, too, i dont expect to be around much until january, take care, I think the resolution of the financial thing is that you and Scott are the money guys
(9:04:41 PM) kenkogni: if anyone's still around--i apologise. received word that a very good friend died, and forgot this was going
(9:08:06 PM) robinsonchicago: I think it is pretty much over, Barrett left a while ago to finish an article for The Guardian
(9:11:52 PM) kenkogni: Ok. Will email. srry, pax
(9:12:52 PM) robinsonchicago: im out of here too, good night

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Barrett Brown <barriticus@gmail.com> wrote:

He was pretty interested so I let him in. First interaction I had with him was him leaving a comment saying that he would punch me next time he was in NYC because I made a joke about pirating movies. I told him to make a documentary out of it so I could pirate it later. He's a good sport, I guess. Not sure why he's so keen on the term "digital technology." Did he at least make valid points in the debate?

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Clark Robinson <robinsonchicago@gmail.com> wrote:

Tony came in the IRC after you left and debated with Tim for a while about the power of digital technology to affect government. Tony is pretty pessimistic.
I shared the docs with him that I earlier sent you to review before posting to the Wiki.

--
Regards,

Barrett Brown
512-560-2302